One of the big problems is that JWs don't realize that Armageddon is going to be fought in Jerusalem, not Brooklyn! The prophets couldn't have been more clear on the matter. John even identified it as the city where our Lord was crucified. The Society is a tiny little organization that other nations don't care anything about. Why would they suddenly combine forces and attack the Governing Body with nuclear weapons?
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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Watching "Waiting for Armageddon"
by Anony Mous init's a documentary on people that are waiting for the rapture, armageddon etc.
basically anything evangelical and fundamental christians believe in.
even though the documentary doesn't make any commentary, it seems that jw's aren't the only one scaring their children and members and making an entire industry around it.
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The distinction between cult and religion.....
by NoRegrets inanother great article from the ted talks.
opening quote really tells it all: "the distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/when-organized-religion-become_b_3996139.html?ir=ted+weekends&ref=topbar.
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Cold Steel
No, I'd prefer to ask current believing Mormons. I've talked to too many obnoxious, rude, boorish buffoons who have left the church for what I believe are spotty reasons. That would be okay, but most often they turn into bitter enemies of the church. I had a good friend who left the church and it was all he could talk about. I told him, "Look, don't become a basket case. Just drop it and move on." My wife, a non-Mormon, got to where she no longer wanted to be around him. His family is still very strong in the church. He kept promising to send me irrefutable evidence that the Book of Mormon was a hoax, and I promised in turn to read it, but it never came. (Also, if there was any credible evidence, I'd know about it.) So I'll go with the active members....
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The distinction between cult and religion.....
by NoRegrets inanother great article from the ted talks.
opening quote really tells it all: "the distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/when-organized-religion-become_b_3996139.html?ir=ted+weekends&ref=topbar.
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Cold Steel
Ah, some voices of reason...finally!
As for cantleave's recommended reading on Mormonism:
Make no mistake, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an authoritarian cult, and has been since the beginning. It is also one of the longest lived cults in America and has spread around the globe to almost every country in the world. Its membership is second only to the Roman Catholic Church, although in the last few years it has been dwindling due to many members leaving, despite the threat of excommunication and shunning by friends and family.
Our membership is second only to the Roman Catholic faith? Were that but true, we’d be thrilled. I don’t know how you would know how our membership has been “dwindling,” as we don’t publish that sort of statistic. And, as stated, Mormons do not believe in ritualistic shunning. If there is shunning, it’s the type people do as people. It is not condoned, encouraged or taught by the church and doesn’t reflect the love people should have for friends or family.
As for our cult status, you say we have “spread around the globe to almost every country in the world.” Yep, just like ancient Christianity did two thousand years ago...no point in denying it.
One of the problems I have with L.D.S. is that they expound on the same outdated theories of Joseph Smith even in the face of actual science. Smith said that the American Indians were direct decedents of the lost tribe of Israel. Recent DNA evidence shows absolutely no Semitic ancestry. How can you respect a religious entity that has lies at its base?
Completely behind the times. I saved some text books from college, but upon reading them some years later, I had to toss them in the trash because they were so behind the times. If one assumes the American Indians of the plains are the Book of Mormon people, that’s one thing; modern LDS scholars have, for several decades now, have concentrated on Mesoamerica as the Book of Mormon lands, which is the only geography in this hemisphere which matches the Book of Mormon. Check out the FAIRLDS videos on YouTube regarding the Book of Mormon geology and DNA.
Book of Mormon Geology and DNA.
Not only are the Book of Mormon’s insights to the New World fascinating, but it’s description of the ancient Arabian desert is one hundred percent accurate. No one in Joseph Smith’s day could have known such minor details and bore-sighted accuracy of Old World geography.
Accuracy of Old World Geography.
Some of its policies are disturbing from a human rights point of view. Like Scientology, apostates are not welcome. (Sometimes true if they are obnoxious or disrespectful.) In cases where a family member has left the "church," other family members still in are forced to shun them (Completely not true.) and even divorce them (Absolutely not true. “Force” is not a word you’ll find in the LDS church.). In cases where they have been inducted into the Temples, they will be deprived of the right to enter the Temple (True), even if their children are getting married, they will have to stand outside (True). As a matter of fact, if you have a child that has converted to Mormonism, and you have not, you will have to stand outside the Temple (True, but receptions are NOT held in the temple in any event). Mormons are taught that even if they have been permanently sealed to family members, if they leave the faith, they will be unsealed (Well, of course. But that remains up to the member, on whether they’re excommunicated or not, and if not, it ultimately will be settled by the great judge of all mankind. Many former members actually request to be cut off in all respects to the church.). My great-grandmother went to her death believing that she would not be allowed to see my grandfather in the afterlife because he had left the Mormon church. (She was in error. Visiting rights are actually quite liberal in the afterlife. If she attains the greater glory in the resurrection, she can visit anyone she wishes.)
More disturbing is the practice of the 'worthiness interview.' Like the "sec checks" in Scientology, all members of the faith are called in several times a year for confessional interview by priesthood leaders like the stake president or a bishop (Not the case for me or anyone I know. You may go in for a tithing settlement at the end of the year, but that’s not mandatory; likewise, one has a worthiness interview if they obtain a temple recommend, but that’s good for two years, I think.). These are very invasive interviews that include questioning the parishioner if the still believe in God, or the current prophet, are they tithing enough, do they masturbate? (That last one has been cut out, but you’re spot on regarding the others. And what’s so invasive about being questioned about your views on God or the church leadership? It is, after all, a worthiness interview.)
... Mormon children grow up sexually repressed and many grow up emotionally insecure about their own sexuality.
What?? Call for references!
Parents are not allowed in the room while...sexual questions are asked. Mormon parents are not allowed to question the authority of their leaders, so they send their male and female children to be alone, behind closed doors with an adult male. Because of mistrust of non-Mormon authority, sexual abuse and sexual abuse of children goes mainly unreported, as they prefer to handle their "problems" internally, much like Scientology.
This goes beyond absurdity and far into the realm of irresponsibility. Please document this as well. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taken incredible precautions to prevent child abuse. And because such abuse it’s extraordinarily rare, you chalk it up to being underreported! Talk about non-sequiturs! If anything, we have far less child abuse than any other Christian sect I can think of.
In determining whether any religious movement is a “cult” or not, one must first define the term. Certainly, the reasons you cite certainly don’t cast the LDS church into “Scientology” category.
Finally, your entire write-up of the temple garment is completely spurious. Call it “magic underwear” if you wish, but the scriptures are replete with references to sacred vestments. Your assertion that “Mormons believe that the holy garment will protect them from fire, bullets, knives and other assaults” is astoundingly ignorant. It would be like saying that Christians believe the cross will protect them against vampires, evil spirits and the evil eye. For a responsible treatise on this, I recommend you read Hugh Nibley’s Sacred Vestments. You may find that our so-called “magic underwear” has a rich tradition in both Jewish and Christian traditions.
In any event, taking a doctrine or practice, ridiculing it and walking away isn’t scholarship or even responsible reporting. It's simply name calling.
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The distinction between cult and religion.....
by NoRegrets inanother great article from the ted talks.
opening quote really tells it all: "the distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/when-organized-religion-become_b_3996139.html?ir=ted+weekends&ref=topbar.
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Cold Steel
No, I'm not saying the Jehovah's Witnesses aren't a cult. But they're a long way off from being Mormons. If we're going to talk honestly about cults, we have to define them. We also have to acknowledge that ancient Christianity was a cult, so cults aren't necessarily bad. If used as a pejorative term, yes, Jehovah's Witnesses are in to carefully crafted mind control, and they do this by limiting members' friends and family relations to fellow JWs. Ritualistic shunning also is a vicious doctrine. Love is missing in the religion and is replaced by fear.
Mormons can have free associations, read religious material from other religions, openly question biblical exegesis of apostles and other leaders (like Paul's views on women). Like early Christianity, the LDS faith is a top-down apostolic organization that believes in modern prophets, revelation, keys of authority and an open canon of scripture. We eschew creeds, though we have a set standards of basic beliefs. We excommunicate and disfellowship (not the same in our faith), but it doesn't involve shunning. It's done with the hope of recovery. We believe in Hell, but that it is not everlasting in the sense of never ending; rather, we believe it is remedial and is intended to help the wicked to understand the wickedness they've committed. Peter says that when Jesus died, he went and "preached to the spirits in prison, which at one time were disobedient in the days of Noah." Are some people unhappy about the church? Yes, but that's inevitable. We're no more or less cultish than Methodists, and anyone who's ever attended our meetings realize that.
We adhere to the saying, "Be ye wise as serpants, but harmless as doves." We wish no one ill and view all men as brothers/sisters.
If that's a cult, were there more cults in the world.
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The distinction between cult and religion.....
by NoRegrets inanother great article from the ted talks.
opening quote really tells it all: "the distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/when-organized-religion-become_b_3996139.html?ir=ted+weekends&ref=topbar.
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Cold Steel
Mormonism is no more of a cult than any other religion.
I've noticed, cantleave, that you primarily whip in, name call and leave. It would be as if I responded to your message by calling you an insufferable dork who wouldn't know a cult if it was pulled up from behind and snapped over your head.
But of course I would never do that.
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The distinction between cult and religion.....
by NoRegrets inanother great article from the ted talks.
opening quote really tells it all: "the distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/when-organized-religion-become_b_3996139.html?ir=ted+weekends&ref=topbar.
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Cold Steel
Catholicism has, for years, threatened its members with excommunication if itself was threatened. When Jesus gave Peter the "keys of the Kingdom of Heaven," he was giving the church (through Peter and his successors) the power to damn people to a neverending hell. If he could bind in Heaven and Earth, he could baptize and have it recognized by God. And if he could "loose" on Heaven and Earth, he could cut someone off from the Kingdom and thereby cause them to be loosed, or cut off, from the Kingdom.
Cardinals and priests, while they did not individually hold these keys, could exercise those keys under papal authority. And, brother, if you were excommunicated, you were out! And all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't save you if you were cut off. So two mobsters are out on the street and Mobster A shoots Mobster B, and what does the latter do? "Get me a priest!" And regardless of the life Mobster B has lived; despite his murders, the beatings and other evils he committed, if he could get a priest to give him a pass, then he would forever sit on the Lord's right hand whilst millions of Jews are condemned to Hell because they didn't believe in Jesus!
King Henry VIII believed (or so he said) that as the king, he was the Defender of the Faith and sanctified by God to represent Him. And this despite the fact that all of the kings of Israel showed deference to the prophets. David and Solomon were known to have received revelation, but what happened to Saul, David's predecessor, when, tired of waiting for Samuel to show up and offer sacrifices, took it upon himself to do so? An angry Samuel showed up and immediately stripped Saul of his kingdom.
Now is Catholicism a cult? It certainly can, according to its teachings, strip a man of his membership in the church. The Jehovah's Witnesses have NEVER been given the keys of the Lord's Kingdom of Heaven, so when the elders decide to excommuni...er...disfellowship Brother Stumble because he was caught reading a book on Seventh Day Adventism, what power do they have to either bind or loose their judgments on Heaven or Earth? None, zero, zip, nada, nil! The only power elders or the Governing Body have is between the ears of the members.
Cults tend to be small organizations that exercise power over its people that, to normal people, seem excessive. I'd also classify Scientology as a cult because of its control and ability to physically punish, even hold, its members.
The term itself is cultish in that people use it however they wish. But the world is full of them.
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The distinction between cult and religion.....
by NoRegrets inanother great article from the ted talks.
opening quote really tells it all: "the distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/when-organized-religion-become_b_3996139.html?ir=ted+weekends&ref=topbar.
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Cold Steel
If everyone can define cults as they wish, then there can be no consistent definition of the word.
Many religions in their infancy are called "cults" (ancient Christianity for example) because they take an existing religion, add to it and have a charismatic leader, or leaders, who add their interpretations or commentary, thus defining the new "output" religion or sect.
Jesus introduced NEW doctrines in Christianity, and NEW interpretations of existing scripture and prophecy. Many of the Jews, even today, complain that Jesus hijacked Judaism and added his own spin as to what the Messiah should be and do. Armageddon is a good example. According to the prophet Zechariah, the Messiah will be a Savior of his people because he will protect the Jews from their enemies. He would be a political and military leader, roles Jesus has not (as yet) fulfilled. Many Jews expected the Messiah would save them from the Romans. A great force from the North comes upon them and desecrates the Holy of Holies. The Mount of Olives splits in twain and the Jews rush in to meet their Messiah. Unfortunately for them, they didn't understand that the Messiah would also save men from their sins, and that a third temple would first have to be built before the final battle.
Even today, many Jews think Jesus and his followers were a cult. The Romans considered them a cult, especially the intellectual class.
The Jehovah's Witnesses laid their foundations before Israel became a nation. As a result, they completely screwed up the Armageddon prophecies to where Jerusalem and the Jews were "spiritualized" out of existence and replaced by a small, man-made cult created in the United States around the turn of the century (19th Century). Now when JW leadership states -- with a straight face -- that the world's nations will one day declare all-out war against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and that Jehovah will save his people and destroy those wicked, worldly nations, rational people say, "Why would the nations of the earth want to declare war on a Brooklyn publishing company that prints bad Bible translations and small, poorly written religious magazines?"
Ummm...yeah...that makes sense. But the original prophecy of a great gentile power coming out of the north to beseige the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish people make for a slightly better story. Both have been at the center of a raging political and religious controversy that has lasted for millennia. Besides, the scripture says "Jews" and "Jerusalem," and "Mount of Olives." It's the Governing Body that has changed these things to mean "Jehovah's Witnesses" and "Brooklyn" and "Paradise Earth."
So, are the Jehovah's Witnesses a cult or an eccentric modern wacko religion?
I think it can be both.
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Please Hear My Confession, I lied to all my friends in the Kingdom Hall! Forgiveness needed!
by AuntConnie ini ask for the forgiveness of all the brothers and sisters who heard me lie and lie and lie about how my husband lost all his weight!
please make room in your heart to forgive me, it's rare i will open up myself to the scrutiny of jehovah's witnesses net message board, i try not to reveal too many things about my life.
i come from a fleshly family that is screwed up, we learned from youth how to use theocratic warfare even with other jehovah's witnesses asking innocent questions.
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Cold Steel
My child...I hear your pain, even from the remote depths of the electronic world in which we live. Reading between your lines I could hear you crying out in great big cyber-sobs the guilt and frustration of what you must be going through.
But you must be strong. You must step up to the proverbial plate and pay the utmost farthing for your sin. For God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.
You know what that means:
Ice Cream and Drinks
For Everyone...
(On YOU, of Course)!
So now that that is over...just don't ever let it happen again!
And by the way, you're disfellowshiped! Get your stuff and get out!
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What is the biblical justification for says that a creative days is 7000 years ?
by trackregister99 inhello, what is the biblical proof of that a creative days is 7000 years.
i read in the photodrama that russell says that a creative days is 7000 years.
and in 1965 edition of "make sure of all things" page 134 that was changed from "7000 years" to "about 7000 years".. the bible not says the duration of a creative day.
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Cold Steel
Yes, Captain Obvious, you are correct. Where the Mormons differ is that we're willing to wait for the answers. We don't try to stipulate how old Earth is, when Adam was placed in the Garden, how long he was there, whether dinosaurs lived and when. In a revelation to Joseph Smith, he was told: “...in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof; things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.” (D&C 101:32-34)
When the scriptures say that God created the earth in seven days and rested (which means he desisted). The word for "day" in scripture means exactly what it means in English. It can mean a 24-hour period, or it can mean an "era" of undetermined time. We believe that when man began, he was an exalted person for a mortal. He did not live in caves or go through a developmental period, but began with an advanced language and had advanced knowledge of God and right and wrong. But he very quickly degenerated into wickedness and became degenerate. How and in what stages this happened will be revealed, but for now we don't have the pieces of the puzzle that are required to have a knowledge of all things.
So many of us are willing to wait. The JWs have always screwed up because they tried to figure out the picture before they had nearly enough pieces.
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Lunacy or apostasy?
by Separation of Powers inover the years i have heard some really strange beliefs shared openly with others in the congregation.
one sister, for example, stated that you could not be cremated because then "all your molecules will be spread around and jehovah couldn't put you back together.
" kinda sounds like she got stuck in a nursery rhyme there, a la humpty dumpty.. .
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Cold Steel
SoP:One sister, for example, stated that you could not be cremated because then "all your molecules will be spread around and Jehovah couldn't put you back together."
And you guys complain that your meetings are boring?? Sister Stumble most likely was trying to scare the younger members into making an early resolve not to be cremated. (Is there anything against cremation in the Society?) Me, I would have stood up and said of course Jehovah could put you back together...he's God! You might stutter for the rest of eternity, but he could put you back together! Hmmm...that reminds me, I have to ask my evangelical friends if I decide to get cremated, whether I can still burn in Hell?
Anyways, sometimes there are people in the congregation that spread around their wild ideas, ideas that are totally contrary to the "truth" as published by the Watchtower. Yet, nothing, absolutely NOTHING happens to them!
That's because no one's threatened. If they dis the Governing Body, though, the smiles might get a little tight.
The living mate, if they survive Armageddon, will NOT be able to remarry that person. THAT is the "current" light. Now, why is it then that an older sister can totally disregard that light and promote her own belief that she will, IN FACT, be with her husband AFTER the resurrection and nobody says a single thing....
Yeah, well that light may be getting a little dim. Adam and Eve were married by the Lord, thus their marriage was intended to be forever, right? And since Jesus did nothing except return humanity back to a garden environment, and since he intends for them to live as Adam and Eve lived, then how will people replenish the earth? No children like in the pictures? Jesus said that there would be no marriage or giving in marriage in the resurrection. If someone is married BEFORE the resurrection, that's a different tune. Once a person passes through the resurrection that person cannot be married. But Jesus didn't say that people couldn't be married prior to the resurrection.
